It s the Drop Site Massacre All Over Again
#1 
Posted 03 April 2009 - 07:25 PM
malika666
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Once once more a Word Bearers thread, but this is something I'm non really getting. Lorgar separate the Legion in ii, one half would remain nigh Terra (posing as Loyalists) while the other half moved on to Calth to attack the Ultramarines.
If Lorgar is posing as a loyalist this means that this probably happened before the Driblet Site Massacre on Istvaan Five right? Only, if that were the case. Wouldn't the Emperor eventually find out that there is something incorrect with the Discussion Bearers when they only want to send in half of their Legion to stop Horus, and wouldn't the Ultramarines try to ship a bulletin to Terra about the betrayal?
I've been trying to await through the timelines which of the two happened kickoff, simply I can't find anything specific on it.
Everyone with ideas here?
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#2
Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:20 PM
GrantDaKiller
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Lorgar left 40000 give-and-take bearers by earth to pose as loyalist. When Horus gave the order for the unabridged Ultramarines legion to muster at Calth to assistance the Veridan organization which was patently under attack by Orks. When Guilliman and the Ultramarines arived at Calth their astropaths were unable to ship whatever messages due to Warp storms. And so they were attacked by the word bearers. So the starting time of the battle would before the dropsite massacre only the end would exist after it.
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#3
Posted 03 April 2009 - 08:34 PM
malika666
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So information technology would be impossible for those who were present at the Drop Site Massacres to exist at the Invasion of Calth likewise?
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#4
Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:15 PM
GrantDaKiller
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Yeah it would. Likewise the majority of the legion was there
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#5
Posted 03 April 2009 - 09:49 PM
malika666
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Where, at Istvaan (sp?) 5 or at Calth?
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#6
Posted 03 April 2009 - ten:22 PM
Hobo Willie
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My agreement was that in that location was a (very) small presence of Discussion Bearers effectually Terra and that later on the Drop Site Massacres on Istvaan V, the Word Bearers there went to Calth.
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#vii
Posted 04 April 2009 - 06:ten PM
GrantDaKiller
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They were more often than not at Calth. 40000 marines were at Istvaan 100000+ were at Calth.
Co-Creator of the Horus Heresy Battle Royale Series
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#8
Posted 04 Apr 2009 - 07:20 PM
Hobo Willie
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Where do you get those numbers? My understanding is that no i knows how large each Legion was, merely that they number in the 5 digit range, not in the half dozen digit range.
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#9
Posted 04 April 2009 - 08:01 PM
malika666
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Co-ordinate to the Collected Visions book the Legions each number 100k marines at to the lowest degree.
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#10
Posted 04 April 2009 - 09:01 PM
GrantDaKiller
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Yep simply information technology says that Kor Phaeron led over 100000 marines on Calth and also that Lorgar stationed fourty companies near Earth, beingness that heresy era companies were roughly the size of a 40k chapter.
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#11
Posted 04 April 2009 - 09:12 PM
GrantDaKiller
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(This is an edit to my previous post, edit button does not work dont know why)
I read upward on the details and i was wrong about the number of marines that are in a visitor, which means that simply 4000 give-and-take bearers took part on Istvaan. But this yet means that there were over 100000 marines in their legion. Besides in that location is no set number as the Ultramarines had some 250000 marines.
Co-Creator of the Horus Heresy Battle Royale Serial
"No world shall be beyond my rule; no enemy shall be beyond my wrath" –The Emperor
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#12
Posted 04 Apr 2009 - 09:xix PM
malika666
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Where do y'all get that from? I hateful if 40 companies (are we talking companies of 100 marines or those greater ones?) were stationed virtually Terra we tin can assume that 40000 participated in the Istvaan attacks and the other 100k moved to Calth.
Still, what strikes to me as odd is that the Emperor didn't go like "hey...why are the Discussion Bearers but sending a faction of their Legion to Istvaan, what about the other 100k?"
Also, the companies/chapters kind of confuse me. In 1 hand nosotros got that the Word Bearers are divided into Chapters of 10 companies of 100 marines each (idea that was a Codex Astartes invention, but ok...) significant that there would merely exist a 1st to a 10th company out there of each chapter, merely then at that place is also the 34th company. So does that one belong to a chapter with at to the lowest degree 34 companies?
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#13
Posted 04 April 2009 - 09:35 PM
GrantDaKiller
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Well considering companies heresy era were 100 men. So at that place would exist over 1000 companies.
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#14
Posted 04 April 2009 - 10:00 PM
Hobo Willie
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That really doesn't seem right.
ane) Fulgrim states in that location were only tens of thousands of Astartes contesting each other on Istvaan Five, when six full Legions were present, plus the Veteran Companies from the Iron Hands. This was prior to the other four landing and the Massacres beginning. If each Legion was ~100,000, then that would be 600,000+ battling and hundreds of thousands would have been the phrase.
2) In 1 of the first three books of the Horus Heresy series, it is stated that the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus take less than 30 Companies (I can't remember the exact number, I'm thinking 23, but I'll just use thirty for an instance). Which means the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, if those were all Keen Companies, would accept less than thirty,000 marines. The Salamanders only ever had 7 Companies (one for each settlement on Nocturne), as well. Meaning that they had ~7,000 Marines if those were Swell Companies prior to the Heresy. Nowhere is it written that the Salamanders and the Sons of Horus were understrength Legions.
3) As stated, the Dark Angels had half of their strength on Caliban during the Heresy. It's hard enough to swallow if this is 5,000 marines let solitary 50,000 marines just sitting there doing nothing but getting all paranoid and Chaosy.
4) If the average Legion was around ~100,000 marines, then ~100,000 Nighttime Lords survived the Heresy. They didn't participate in the Heresy other than on Istvaan V where information technology can be causeless they took fiddling to no casualties. If ~100,000 Nighttime Lords survived the Heresy while only 23,000 Ultramarines (23 2nd Founding Chapters), does that make any sense every bit to how the Imperium survived?
If the Artbooks say 100,000 and 250,000, I think those take to exist typos. My understanding has always been that the Legions were ~x,000 strong with deviations.
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#fifteen
Posted 04 April 2009 - ten:26 PM
malika666
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A systematic typo? I would probably telephone call information technology inconsistency. I can sympathise both arguments though. I mean if the legions were split in smaller capacity information technology would make sense if the legions consisted of only a couple of tens of thousands.
However, those numbers in a galactic scale don't make sense, especially if we consider that the Infinite Marines during the Great Crusade were the main fighting force, with the Imperial Guard only performance as a garrison and back up forcefulness.
Besides,
GW tends to utilise very small numbers for very big wars. I mean but a couple of million soldiers on each side for battles for unabridged Hive worlds? Look at WWII, they were fighting with millions and millions of soldiers, and that was primarily over one continent. The Imperium uses that same number for entire sectors? The Imperium that tends to fight like a big horde?
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#16
Posted 04 April 2009 - 10:30 PM
GrantDaKiller
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If they were typos and then whoever edited the books is a moron equally it clearly states multiple times that the legions are nearly 100000 strong.
And at the dropsite massacre the Emperors children were simply fighting the Fe Easily veteran companies which is about 10000 men.
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#17
Posted 04 April 2009 - 10:42 PM
malika666
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If they were typos then whoever edited the books is a moron equally it clearly states multiple times that the legions are about 100000 strong.
And at the dropsite massacre the Emperors children were only fighting the Iron Hands veteran companies which is well-nigh 10000 men.
What are the sources of that? I don't think either 1 of you is wrong since nosotros are clearly dealing with one of those typical inconsistencies nosotros've got to know and love from
GW. 
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#18
Posted 04 Apr 2009 - x:59 PM
GrantDaKiller
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Its from the Horus Heresy Collected Visions book.
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#19
Posted 04 April 2009 - x:59 PM
GrantDaKiller
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Its from the Horus Heresy Nerveless Visions book.
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#twenty
Posted 04 April 2009 - 11:01 PM
GrantDaKiller
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Argghh
Why does information technology keep double posting!!!!!!!!!
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#21
Posted 05 April 2009 - 12:40 AM
Vodunius
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Considering the residual of the fluff in the Horus Heresy artbooks the 100k per legion is obviously an attempted retcon - albeit one that apparentl failed since subsequent books ignored it.
But, if that were the case. Wouldn't the Emperor eventually find out that there is something wrong with the Word Bearers when they only want to send in half of their Legion to stop Horus, and wouldn't the Ultramarines try to transport a message to Terra well-nigh the betrayal?
In that location wouldn't really be whatsoever more reason to suspect the Word Bearers than the Iron Hands, I tin very much imagine a scene along the lines of:
"My lords Lorgar and Ferrus Mannus, our beloved Emperor requests to know why you have brought then few troops to this near important of endeavours?"
"The unabridged might of the Fe Hands is en-route to deal with the traitors, simply due to their previous deployments the vast majority of our ships will non get in in time for the landings."
"As yous know the majority of the Word Bearers legion departed for operations on the Eastern Fringe some months agone, they besides wil be unable to reach us in fourth dimension."
i hate to break information technology to you chaps, simply according to the English Language a Chevron is a V shape, if your 'Chevrons' are not 5 shaped and so they are simply adventure stripes NOT Chevrons
Horus killed Sanguinius so hard that his entire chapter feels it forever..
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#22
Posted 05 Apr 2009 - 12:43 AM
Hobo Willie
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At the end of Fulgrim, it'due south more than just the EC and IH fighting, it's the EC, Nosotros, SoH, and DG versus the RG, IH Veterans, and Sallies. The Loyalists push frontward onto the battlements prepared past the EC earlier in Fulgrim and then autumn back to the driblet zones where the NL, IW, AL, and WB are waiting.
While millions of Marines make better sense than hundreds of thousands overall, I think that Games Workshop took a page from Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Basically, the more than aristocracy and powerful a soldiery is, a smaller numerical presence is required. And of all the soldiers listed in all the science fiction I've read, Space Marines take the cake.
Millions of people fighting over a Hive Globe isn't a tiny amount at all. You lot have to think that only so many people can exist packed into trenches and bunkers and however finer exist fighting. There might be billions in the hive, just several hundred thousand might be all that tin can fill up the battlements of that hive for defense. Packing more soldiers into a gainsay zone doesn't necessary mean victory, but higher casualties every bit higher density of soldiers will just mean more effective artillery and aircraft bombardments.
I'm sure there are conflicts that can number in the billions per side but it'd accept to exist on a massive, massive scale for that many soldiers to fill trenches and accept infinite for tanks and the similar.
If each Legion had hundreds of thousands of Astartes and the 2nd Founding only had about 50 or so Capacity (~50,000) marines, that ways that well over a one thousand thousand Loyal Astartes died from get-go to terminate of the Heresy, which is more marines than there are in M41. I understand the Heresy is on an epic scale but the percentage of casualties are ridiculous. The Blood Angels went to 100,000+ to 5,000 (5 Second Founding Chapters). The white Scars went from 100,000+ to 3,000 (3 2nd Founding Chapters). That'southward a (minimum of a) 97% drop. That blazon of loss is ridiculous for any of the Legions except the Raven Guard and Salamanders.
Now, y'all can theorize that the exact number of 2nd Founding Chapters to exist unknown, simply there are restrictions there. The Ultramarines are listed as having specifically 23. And they are also listed as having the most second Founding Capacity. The Salamanders are listed equally having none and the Space Wolves supposedly but have the single successor. And I doubt the Raven Baby-sit had more the couple listed. But here comes another point: the Fe Hands, minus their veteran Companies didn't do anything else in the Heresy. But they are only listed as having two known Successors only they tin't have more than than 23, so does that hateful for them to have been a normal sized Legion, they would take had to accept 78 Veteran (Great) Companies? Granted, they could have been a smaller Legion merely they aren't listed equally smaller. The only Legion that is mentioned as small is the Emperor's Children.
As well where are the recruits coming in? Granted, the Night Angels have an excuse and the Regal Fists' armada was busy with the Heresy. Merely the rest of the Chapters would have steady recruits coming in still. With Traitor Legions like the Dark Lords still at over 100,000 strong, y'all'd call back recruiting would exist going wild to endeavour and make sure the Imperium had the numbers to counter that large of a threat.
Also, the Sons of Horus aren't listed as actually doing anything during the Siege of Terra. If that's the case, so wouldn't they withal exist over 100,000 marines stiff? Why have any of the Black Crusades failed if the Black Legion alone can muster that? Even if information technology splintered to half strength, it would have taken 50 full Capacity to counteract.
I just don't see how the Legions would have been that large. The numbers brand sense for conquering the galaxy, yes, merely they don't make sense in terms of postal service-heresy fluff.
Edited by Hobo Willie, 05 April 2009 - 12:45 AM.
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#23
Posted 05 April 2009 - 01:06 AM
Slick Jimmy
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I have to side with the HOBO on this one. Pre-heresy legions were larger than 10,000 no doubt, but there is no way they were hundreds of thousands stiff. As stated by HW Fulgrim, the actual account of the istvaan massacre, states tens of thousands. I have non read collected visions, or the art book, but as is often the case, exaggerated numbers make for more heady stories.
The biggest effect I take with the legions existence that large is the simple math lesson that has been catechism through 4 renditions of the existance of the warhammer 40K universe country the # of succesor chapters for each loyalist legion, and they don't add up to hundreds of thousands before paw.
The Night Angels, whom I played and adored since mid-2nd edition have only ever had 3 successor chapters that all follow codex astartes numerical guidlines. And so that ways roughly 4000 marines survived the
, or roughly one-half a legion, and since the legion split, that makes sense, otherwise they are hunting tens of thousands of fallen, and cypher would have long since gathered his brethern and ravaged Terra.
Also, legions losing over ninety% of their forces would mean the capacity that took even heavier losses, raven guard, would number less than my fingers and toes. And yet they even so managed successor chapters subsequently the
? I think not.
While hundreds of thousands sounds expert, information technology just does not fit into established fluff or canon. perhaps the art book is more than for art than fluff.
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#24
Posted 05 April 2009 - 01:25 AM
Vodunius
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Hobo's certainly right, 100,000 doesn't fit with post-heresy fluff and the low budget cut-down Horus Heresy
GWfobbed united states off with in the Alphabetize Astartes serial, it does however fit with the truthful Horus Heresy as depicted in Space Marine 1st edition.
..Marines surged frontward. A hundred thou voices were raised, crying loyalty to the Emperor or to the Warmaster. X thousand men moaned equally they died.
Their comrades fought on around their corpses. Some had no time to scream or pray or plead. They vanished in expanding clouds of super-heated steam as the plasma bolts of the Titans barbarous amid them. Bolters rattled and chainsword clashed with armour.
Rhinos and State Raiders ploughed through the manswarm similar ships through spumy sea. They left ruddy wakes. Like not bad beetles they scuttled amongst the ant-like men. Like beetles they were crushed nether foot by towering Titans.
~
The battle surged dorsum and forth till in the end true organized religion prevailed and we had mastery. Yet we were slaughtered, but ane in ten survived. The urban center was dust.
^ Lexicanium Elissar Trask of the Ultramarines relating the boxing for an unspecified* city on Tallarn - ane of dozens of planets other than the Istvan III, V and Terra to run into major Astartes on Astartes conflict during the Heresy era.
* although quite maybe the capital city of Rogsberg which was noted to have changed easily several times in the 3 yr Tallarn campaign - presumably with similar levels of bloodshed.
Edited past Vodunius, 05 Apr 2009 - 01:42 AM.
i hate to break it to you chaps, but according to the English language Linguistic communication a Chevron is a V shape, if your 'Chevrons' are non Five shaped then they are just hazard stripes NOT Chevrons
Horus killed Sanguinius so hard that his unabridged chapter feels it forever..
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#25
Posted 05 April 2009 - 01:49 AM
Slick Jimmy
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I could see a few of the legions existence around 100,000 like the ultras. But even then, that means at least 75 pct casualties on their end. But is information technology possible that in that hundred thousand voices, not-marine imperial forces, such as titan crews, and guardsmen, were involved as well? I can imagine the guardsmen involved in guarding their home planet numbering in the hundreds of thousands.
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